PODCAST TRANSCRIPT | EPISODE 251: Raising Godly Children in an Ungodly Culture, Part 2
LIFE TO THE FULL w/ Nancy Campbell
EPISODE 251: Raising Godly Children in an Ungodly Culture, Part 2
Allison and Daniel Hartman are with me again today. We talk about the father's influence in the home. A godly father has a powerful influence in guiding his children. It is certainly time for the hearts of the fathers to be turned to the children.
Announcer: Welcome to the podcast, Life to The Full, with Nancy Campbell, founder and publisher of Above Rubies.
Nancy Campbell: Hello, ladies! You won’t believe it, but I have Daniel and Allison Hartman with us again! Wow! That’s so cool. And I also have my current Above Rubies helper, Suzanne, who comes from Washington state.
Last time we were talking with Daniel and Allison, and we were talking about the importance of beginning to see everything in our worldview from a family perspective. Not just individually, but as a family, because this is God’s heart. This is how He began this world. This was His plan.
I love Genesis 2:24, where it says: “Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.” In that Scripture, we get the whole concept of family. It not only talks about the husband and the wife; it talks about the mother and the father, even though there was no mother or father living at that time.
Nobody knew what a father or mother was, but God spoke it forth, because it was in His heart. It was His plan. He speaks it out before we’ve even ever seen a father or mother. Of course, from this one-flesh relationship is going to come children. Then the husband and wife become a father and a mother. With the children, they’re a family.
When God was speaking to His people, there’s one Scripture in Jeremiah, where He’s talking. He said, “You know, I’m speaking to all the families of Israel.” He didn’t speak to them individually, but as families (Jeremiah 31;1).
I want to read this Scripture Daniel talked about last time again. We want to talk a little bit with you more today because there’s so much more to say. “Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet, before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.” We know that Elijah came in the anointing of John the Baptist before Jesus came. It tells us about that in Luke 1:16, 17, how that he came, and it repeats this Scripture in Malachi 4:5, 6, that He came to “turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers.”
I’m reading through the New Testament again. I noticed, as I’ve been reading the gospels, on three different occasions, Jesus actually said that John the Baptist came in the anointing of Elijah. John the Baptist came first to prepare the way for the first coming of Jesus. But that wasn’t the great and dreadful day of the Lord that is yet to come.
This Scripture in Malachi has yet to be fulfilled to what God is saying that before Jesus comes again, the anointing of Elijah will come to “turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the hearts of the children to the fathers, lest He comes and smite the earth with a curse.” We can’t take this lightly. We’ve got to get with this Scripture, because it’s pretty serious. What do you think?
Allison: Absolutely.
Daniel: Yeah, yeah, the whole earth. The Kendrick brothers had a movie that we watched. It went through all the statistics of how the fatherless home is affecting our society. All the crime rates are directly linked, everyone in prison, divorce, pretty much every metric of our society is related to this. It says the whole earth will fall under a curse when this is not done correctly.
Like we talked about last time, we’re starting a church in our home, directly encouraging fathers to take up this mantle. Obviously, not just that, but all of Scripture. The whole point is to come into alignment with the Kingdom and not really worry about what everybody else is doing. Let’s just get back to the Bible, and to the New Testament, and not worry about reforming this or that, or what everyone else is doing. Let’s see what the Bible says, and let’s do it.
Nancy: Amen!
Allison: I was going to say, when we picked up last time, when we stopped the podcast, we started talking. We were like, “Oh, man, there’s so much more to say!” But one thing I noticed is, I was telling you that from this church that we started, we’re seeing fruit. We’re already seeing fruit in our own children.
I feel like the neat thing about having a church in your home and being in charge of it, is your children now have responsibilities. In order to raise leaders, we have to put them in leadership positions. To raise servants, you have to put them in servant positions. How can they be taught to serve the widows and orphans if they’re pew-sitters, and they don’t have that responsibility?
We’re in this homechurch situation, and our older, 14, 15-year-olds, they’re the ones setting out the chairs, fixing the meals, helping to make sure the other children, the single moms that are coming with littles that might be noisy. Well, they need to get them some toys, right? We’re setting our children up for success. We’re setting them up to be servants.
It’s been a beautiful thing. I’ve seen, in my own children, I’m watching them. They are growing. I’m seeing fruit. I’m seeing them live this faith as their own and not just be consumers. They are producers. They are leaders. It’s been a reward that I didn’t expect.
Daniel: In 1 Corinthians 14:26, where it lists these requirements, really, I see for the church, they are completely involved. When they’re involved, they have importance.
Allison: Oh, yes.
Nancy: Yes. But anyway, as we were talking last time, when you were with us, Suzanne got talking too, my lovely helper here. She was saying how she experienced this in her whole family. We want you to share that, Suzanne. Tell us your testimony.
Suzanne: First, Nancy, thank you for giving me the opportunity to share, because I am so encouraged by this conversation, as it has been the testimony of my family. Growing up in a family of ten children, we were all homeschooled, and we were really the typical lifestyle Christianity. We went to church on Sunday, and then every night of the week, every one of my siblings and myself had an activity.
Dad was less of the father, and more of the taxi driver. To sports, and to dance, and to voice lessons. I could go on and on. We had youth groups and Bible quizzing. It was less of a unified family and more of a fractured front. It was all in age chunks, and we rarely saw each other. The biggest thing was that we attended church, and churches, where we were split into all the different age groups.
My parents, who are amazing and my biggest role models in life, had a passion and a vision for a family-integrated church. Yet, the lifestyle that we were in didn’t afford for that. The churches that we came into contact with were all broken into a program mentality of public school, a mentality where you would have the youth group in the middle school.
We would go to church on Sunday, and we would be seen as those who lived in the Dark Ages. We still wanted our children to sit in the pews. We still wanted the children to worship and to be trained in the fear and admonition of the Lord by learning how to listen, and to listen actively, and listen well. We really went through a season of searching for a church like this.
But the biggest thing that changed in our family was my father. My three older siblings, who were trained and were living in this home, they ended up turning away from the Lord because my father was so distracted by carpooling, and by doing all the things, and by working a job, and all of these things, that he wasn’t bringing the family back to the Bible. I think it was an amazing thing to see that his leadership was the pillar to our home. When it was gone, the covering was gone from my older sisters, and my family.
In this season of looking for church, my dad went to a conference with a homeschool teacher named Scott Brown. He said something that my dad really holds as a motto in our home, and that is, the church and the family is at the center. Not all of the activities, not all of the programs, a family-integrated church.
My Dad’s heart came back to the Lord in a renewed way. He began to lead us as a family, eventually driving two hours to find a family-integrated church. We spent an entire year every Sunday morning and Wednesday night plugging into this church community two hours away, so we could be a unified family. And I tell you what, those car drives are some of my favorite memories, because going to church, we would have the most incredible conversations. And then coming back, we would be going over what we heard in the sermon, and all the different things that my siblings were able to glean.
We came from a completely fractured family of going to things every single night, and losing the attention of my older siblings, who sadly, are still away from the family and away from the Lord. Now, we are the most unified family, because my dad has taken on the mantle of being the father of our home, and he does it so well. I praise the Lord for my incredible parents.
I can’t leave it there without saying that my mom is the undergirder. She’s the helpmeet to my dad, and she was there, packing all the bags, and prepping all the food to drive those two hours.
We eventually moved closer to our church community. But God be praised for the work He did in my father’s life, to completely transform our family to where now this church is at the center.
On Sunday morning, you’ll find all of us children sitting together in a big, long row, praising the Lord, and fellowshipping over a meal afterwards, and going out, and having not just peer relationships, but relationships of older and wiser couples, and older and wiser men in the church who are mentoring my brothers and my sisters, older women to sisters. The Lord is faithful when we do what the Bible says, and we follow the biblical pattern of what it looks like to have a family-integrated church experience.
Nancy: Amen!
Allison: That is so powerful. When we heard your testimony a little bit ago, I thought, “You have to share that because you’re at a very pivotal age!” Like we talked in the first podcast, so many young people, when they hit that pivotal spot in their lives, they can go one way or the other.
I’ve heard it said that the most important person in a girl’s life is their father. You would almost think that should be the mother, because we’re the same gender. No, the most powerful person in a girl’s life is their father, the most influential person, good or bad. I think it was interesting because you had two different stories. You had your sisters’, and then you had you. You guys both went two different ways. It was all centered around your father, not a youth pastor, but your father.
We have a friend who would not mind me sharing her story. We met her at an Above Rubies retreat. She had such a similar situation, where they had done all the programs and had their children in all these activities, and then, all of a sudden, their son met a girl in youth group who had very different values. Just by her beauty and the romance of the relationship, she sucked her son, who they thought they had done a great job raising, sucked him away from the family to the point where when they got married, they didn’t even invite the mom and dad, or the children, to the wedding! Now they have nothing to do with them.
Daniel: They go as far to say they’ll call the cops, to not even let them come.
Allison: They said, “We’ll call the police if you show up and disturb our wedding,” because they were so against having that family involvement. You go back to, where did it all start? It started by their letting the church raise their children. They were letting programs divide their family. It got so bad that the younger son was so depressed that he lost his brother. Tragically, he ended up burning his house down because he was doing something foolish.
It didn’t start from that. It started from their church; their youth pastor was raising their children. They were allowing culture to decide how their family was going to be raised. I’m so passionate about it and I’m amazed at your story. You’re telling exactly what happens. I was thinking about you, about starting this relationship with this boy, and how you’re about to get married.
You are the exact person that needs to hear this message. You understand? Because what were we just talking about? It all stems from the older children. If your older children get this, they will set a precedent for the younger. I’m so thankful our older daughter is so awesome. She was such a family girl. She was so modest, because her siblings all followed her. Had she been rebellious and whatever, they would have all followed her.
You’ve got to get that message when you’re first married. I encourage all you young people, all the newly marrieds, to go to some of these Above Rubies family camps and hear this message. Let them listen to these podcasts, because it’s so critical.
Suzanne: I would add, as an encouragement to the young women who may be listening, or even the young men, that in that transition where your parents may be opening up their eyes to this new way of living, this biblical way of living, that it does take a season of grace.
There were a lot of times where my dad would step out in leadership, and then maybe stumble, and maybe have to pick back up, by the power of the Holy Spirit. As the older child in the home, there was a lot of forgiveness and a lot of reconciliation. God is the God of reconciliation, so He is able do that.
But there is definitely a grace needed as an older child, to call your siblings higher, and say, “Let’s give our parents grace. Let’s give our parents encouragement as they desire to walk in this new family-integrated lifestyle of bringing the children into it and bringing the family back to the foundation and the sufficiency of Scripture.”
Nancy: Tell us that little story you told me about how you had your Bible basket. And what happened with your siblings? [laughter]
Suzanne: Yes, well, as I said, I do have nine wonderful siblings. They are so, so sweet. But there was a time where I went and I got a basket, just like Nancy, dear Nancy. I had my Bible and my journal and my pens and everything in it. I would put it by my bedside. A couple of days later, two of my little twin brothers both had little baskets. They would come down to where I was sitting. They had their Bibles, and their journals, and they were doing it just like me.
I was greatly encouraged and convicted that every little thing I do as an older sister sets an example. Every word I say, every action, they’re noticing that. It was an encouragement to say, “They’re looking up to me. Whatever I do, whether good or bad, will set a trajectory for how they will honor the family and live in unity.”
Nancy: I have a dear friend. When I was a young person, she was a mother of eight children, but she was one of my best friends. She always said to me, “Nancy, if you train your older children right, then you can trust that all the younger ones will follow on.” It is so true.
Daniel: I’ll just add the father’s perspective. When my children, I saw their hearts straying off, I saw their hearts were becoming divided, I would sit down for hours and talk to them. I’ll say that in the home, as we’re saying with this basket, there’s really “that which is done in secret will be shouted from the rooftops.” It’s exacerbated, good or bad. It’ll be magnified, good or bad.
Really, it’s a growing of parents to humble yourselves and understand that everything that we do, our children are watching. We’re not going to deceive them at all. They’re watching everything that we do. It’s so much more encouragement to me, when I’m understanding that, and when I’m humbling myself as the father, and laying my life down for my family, to guide them. But first, it's got to start with my heart. It’s got to start with me.
Revival has to start. Really, this is the methodology for revival. How is this seen? Well, Elijah came and made the way, and turned the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers. Then came Jesus, and He changed the world. This recipe is so amazing, if, when it’s followed appropriately like it was from the Old Testament to the New Testament. It is how the hearts are changed. And then, once those that are changed in the church, as the Bride of Christ is changed, then discipleship can go out to the world and change the world.
Nancy: Yes. Absolutely.
WE MUST BE OUR CHILDREN’S GREATEST INFLUENCERS
Allison: Right now, our children are being influenced by something. When they’re in public school, or they’re in Christian school, or even a homeschool co-op, your children are being influenced by something, someone. We need to make sure that we are their greatest influencers.
Sports, sports are a very debated topic in homeschool worlds. We’re a very athletic family. Goodness, I want to be careful with the way I say it. We did allow our children to play sports at a Christian school. Thankfully, it worked out fine. The reason it worked out fine was we were very, very careful with boundaries. We never let them ride the bus with the team. We never let them stay in the hotel rooms with the teams.
Let me say, that was a lot of wisdom, because I unfortunately found out, that even though it was a Christian school, there were some really, really naughty, bad things happening on that bus, and in those hotel rooms. You can’t just assume, “Oh well, it’s a Christian school, or it’s a homeschool co-op.” No, if they’re spending six, eight hours with all these children, it’s the blind leading the blind!
We have to be our children’s greatest influencers. If all week long they’re in school, or they’re in programs, and then come to church and then you divide them again, don’t be surprised if they’re following the culture, because that’s all they know. They’re following the blind leading the blind. These fathers, you guys, you mothers, we have to step up. We have to step up and say, “Enough is enough. We’re going to be our children’s greatest influences.”
Suzanne: And just jumping on what you said, one of my favorite quotes says, “You become what you behold.” If young people are like you were just saying, Mrs. Hartman, beholding peer groups, and the culture, and social media, and those types of things, they will become like that.
Allison: Absolutely.
Suzanne: Whereas, on the juxtaposition on that, the opposite of that, is if they’re beholding parents who are rooted in the Word of God, and who are leading their families back to Scripture, and who are passionate about the things of the Lord, that’s what they will behold. They will become mighty in the Kingdom of God because of that.
Allison: Even what we do with our time. We’re an entrepreneurial family. Our children are never allowed to say, “I’m bored,” because I’ll find them a job to do. But we are constantly talking about creating new businesses, and we’re always getting our children involved in buying this and reselling. If you’re talking about being around people who are business-minded, that’s what your children are going to be thinking about instead of playing video games or wasting time watching TV. We don’t do that kind of stuff because that’s not what they see. They see me and my husband. All we do is work, work, work, so that’s what they do.
Daniel: And I’ll add Scriptural context to that. Every family in the Bible, as far as I can see, had some sort of a family business. Whether they were herding sheep, or planting a field, or whatever. When I was young, reading the Bible, that was what I got out of it. “Oh, well, I’m going to be a small business owner and I’m going to include my family in every aspect of it.” I chose a business that I can do that with.
To me, that was so important, in that this could be a whole another rabbit trail. But I’ll just end this with that, that it’s intentionally everything. Getting feedback, including giving importance to my children, giving them jobs and training them, discipling them. That is truly the Great Commission.
Obviously, all power is given to me in heaven and earth. We’re to go and preach the gospel and baptize and repent. But it says: “To make disciples and teach all the commandments that I’ve given you.” When we do that, it’s an all-day thing. It’s making sure we’re intentional on everything that our children are doing, and what I’m doing, because they’re watching me.
Nancy: Absolutely. And I believe that the greatest revival that we can have, that we need, is this Malachi, chapter four, and repeated in Luke, chapter one, the returning of the hearts of the fathers to the children, and vice versa. It’s coming back to family.
I am so thrilled, and I’m praising God to hear of these beautiful revivals that are happening in Asbury College and many other colleges now. They are beautiful. They are the work of God. God is working in the hearts of these beautiful young people and drawing them to Him. They’re seeing their sins, and their folly, and the vainness of this worldly life. They’re turning to the Lord, and it’s so glorious. It’s all part of revival. But the ultimate is, we can even have that, which is an outpouring of the Holy Spirit.
But if we don’t have it touching the family, and changing the family, we haven’t got it! The greatest revival that ever happened was in the time of King Josiah. You just want to go back and read it. It was so powerful. He got rid of every sodomite in the land. Any evil person was wiped out. It was such a total cleansing! You could not even imagine it! Try to imagine it happening in our land. You can hardly imagine it. But that did take place.
And yet, his three children, who were living at that time, teens, who all became future kings, not one of them followed the Lord. Even that revival did not touch the next generation. It must touch the family. It must touch the next generation.
So, as we close, let me read the portion from Luke, which is a repeating of Malachi. Luke 1:17: “And he shall go before Him,” this is talking about John the Baptist, “in the Spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.”
This is the hour for us to be getting ready, preparing for the Lord, for His coming, which is not going to be like the first coming which was joy to all men! Goodwill and joy to all men! This coming will be joy to the believers, but it’s going to be a dreadful day, a dreadful day of God bringing all evil and evil people in subjection to Him. There will be great wrath poured out.
We’ve got to be ready. We’ve got to get our children ready. Even as it tells us in Revelation, it’s a Bride, preparing herself for her Bridegroom. This is the hour. This is the greatest revival. Let’s be part of it. Amen? Can you pray, Daniel, pray as we end?
Daniel: Fathers, my encouragement is to you. It starts with us, and by God’s grace, let’s do it. Let’s take action.
“Dear Lord, thank You so much for Your Word, and You coming and making Yourself real to us, God. Let’s pray, God, that we all come into Your Kingdom, come into Your Presence, God. Let us all enter Your Presence with joy, and Your gates with thanksgiving, God.
Let us humble ourselves before You, God, as fathers, as families, and work out our salvation with fear and trembling, God. We give You the praise and give You the glory. God. The results are Yours. In Jesus’ Name we pray. Amen.”
Nancy: Amen!
that which You have given us and never let it go. We ask it in Jesus’ Name. Amen.”
Blessings from Nancy Campbell
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Transcribed by Darlene Norris * This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
Links for you to enjoy:
Jeremiah 31:1: “At the same time, saith the LORD, will I be THE GOD OF ALL THE FAMILIES OF ISRAEL, and they shall be my people.”