PODCAST TRANSCRIPT | EPISODE 161: LET’S GET BACK THE GLORY, Part 3
FROM OUR HOME TO YOURS w/ Nancy Campbell
EPISODE 161 – LET’S GET BACK THE GLORY, Part 3
We discover today that God's plan for clothing is to cover, not uncover. Allison Hartman from Pensacola joins me as we talk about how we can teach our daughters to dress biblically without giving into legality.
Announcer: Welcome to the podcast, From Our Home to Yours, with Nancy Campbell, founder and publisher of Above Rubies.
Nancy Campbell: I have a guest with me today, although she's not so much a guest, but an old friend. And Allison Hartman has shared a number of times with me on this podcast. Every time they come to stay, I say, “Allison, it's time to do another podcast!”
She and her husband Daniel and family have been staying with us for the week of Fourth of July. They come up each year for this time and we have such a great time together. And we had a marvelous Fourth of July, didn't we?
Allison: We sure did. It was wonderful. Being a Sunday, we just did a little short service and prayer service. That was amazing. Then we headed down to the river and had just a really fun time with lots of food. We loved watching the children saying the Pledge of Allegiance. It was wonderful.
Nancy: Oh yes, and then, of course, we went all day. And then barbecue and fireworks at night from our front lawn. It was a pretty big fireworks. It gets bigger every year!
Allison: Oh yes! Those young men did not spare any expense! Arden and Cedar headed it up and they had all the young boys following them, learning their ways. But thankfully no one got injured and everybody had a wonderful time.
Nancy: Yes, and they were saying to me, “It's going to be even bigger next year!”
Allison: We had a couple visitors too, that came, that had come to our family camp. It was so neat to see them. A couple of the families, the Grahams, and Will and Shavona Shaw. That was fun having them. We were like old friends, even though we just met a couple of them at the retreat.
Nancy: Some of you may not realize that Allison and Daniel are the ones who organize our Above Rubies Family Retreat in Panama, which is down in Florida on the Gulf, right on the Gulf. So it's become a very, very popular family retreat. This last retreat in April, we had about 800 folks there. It was just the most glorious time.
But really, Allison, it hasn't really finished, has it? It just kept going.
Allison: It really did. Now, I started doing ladies' retreats for you when my girls were young. I can't quite remember, but maybe 15 years ago. And then we headed into family camps. And just like most people, when they go to a summer camp, you meet friends, you become besties, and then you get each other's phone numbers or addresses, like when I was growing up. And then you might reach out to them once or twice, but then, that's it.
And then the next summer, you'll think, “Oh, I hope I'll see my friend again.” But that’s just the way it goes. So typically, with these family camps, we will have lots of great connections, a lot of friendships built. But typically, we'll notice on the group chat, which we do during the conference. . .
Nancy: Which you do on WhatsApp, right?
Allison: Right, we use WhatsApp. But after the retreat, though, people are posting: “Here's a picture of my family.” Don't forget me kind of things. “And here's pictures from the retreat.” And then maybe a few prayer requests. “Hey, pray that we get home safely.”
But then, everybody starts leaving the group chat. You can tell, because it says, “So-and-so left. So-and-so left.” But this is so interesting that almost no one has left this group chat. And we're talking 70 to 80 families involved that came to the last retreat. It's just amazing.
In fact, just today I made a post and people said, “Man, I was just so thankful that we're still coordinating, and talking, and sharing.” In fact, someone did share that over the Fourth, two families that met at the retreat got together and spent the Fourth of July together. They live in different states, and they've just become friends. I'm hearing this over and over.
One young man who has a young little girl, he's single. He's a widower, just recently. The family had him come stay with them for a couple of weeks.
Nancy: That was lovely. That was Jether.
Allison: Jether, yes.
Nancy: I did a podcast telling you about Jether, because it wasn't this last retreat, but the retreat before, where his beautiful young wife passed away. She was dying of cancer. If you can get to listen to that podcast, it is unbelievable. But how lovely that someone reached out to Jether. *
Allison: Yes, they had him come stay, and they said they were blessed by him. But how neat, a young, single guy goes and stays with a family that has 14 children and they immediately became friends. And this was all because of this conference, that all these strangers met and left as friends. And they're continuing their friendship. It almost gives me chills thinking about it.
And I honestly think it all goes back to this deep desire for fellowship that has been created by this pandemic, plandemic, covid thing that our government, as we all know, has put this thing in place. But to me, how neat, and how wonderful that something good has come out of something so terrible. And the fact that these families are just starving for fellowship.
And many of them, the churches are still not meeting that. Many of them had not been around other people. Maybe their family doesn't want to be around them. That's very common. Even if you're not concerned about covid, all your family might be concerned, to where they don't even want to fellowship with you.
So it was amazing. We do have another conference, retreat, coming up. We have two coming up in the next year. You want me to mention them now? OK.
Typically, what we have done, we have done an annual conference. Normally that's in April. We've done that for, I don't even know, ten years or so. It's grown from 50 people to a hundred to two hundred. Like Miss Nancy says, last time it was almost 800 people, from all over, from Canada to California.
So we are going to do that annual conference again. It will be April 20th through the 27th, 2022 That's the full week, if you want to come to be on the beach and fellowship with all the families. The conference itself will just be during the weekend. To find out more information to register, and I will say, it is almost three-fourths full now, already. Just because of the families that came last year, they've already rebooked.
But the website is AboveRubiesGulfCoast.com. You'll find out all the dates, and all the details, and how to register. However, because of covid, we had to cancel April, 2020. So instead of just canceling, we went ahead and made it in August. Because of that, this conference center we're going to, this Christian camp, has allowed us to have the August dates as well.
So instead of putting on two full conferences, we've decided to do what we're going to call the Above Rubies Family Reunion. There are so many families who can't wait to get together again. Have potlucks, have cook-outs, have fellowship time, head for the beach together. So we decided to allow that to be August 18th through the 25th. Again, that information can be found at AboveRubiesGulfCoast.com. Or you're welcome to reach me on Facebook, Allison Hartman.
But that's going to be a wonderful time for fellowship. We're going to be doing some breakout sessions that will be very spontaneous. “Hey, head down to So-and-so's if you want to learn about homesteading.” Or “Come here for this dad. He has something he wants to share on raising boys.” Or whatever. You see the possibilities will be endless. We would love to have you come and join us.
Nancy: Yes, so good! If you're interested, you have to book now to get into both those, because that's filling up so fast.
At the moment, we are in the middle of a series called “Let's Get Back the Glory.” We're talking now about getting back the glory God wants us to have, even in what we wear. So we talked about some points last week. I'm going to go on with that today. So, Allison, you can just join me and hop in, whatever you want to say, and whatever's on your heart. It will be good to have both of us talking about this.
NO 4: GOD WANTS US TO WEAR CLOTHING THAT COVERS
So we are up to, I think it's point number five, actually, now. Or maybe point number four. Yes. God wants us to cover when we clothe ourselves. We go to Isaiah 61:10: “I will greatly rejoice in the Lord, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for He hath covered me with the garments of salvation, He hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with jewels.”
Now this is talking about God covering our sins, because this is what He does. When we repent of our sins, He covers our sins with His precious blood. Then He puts on us His robe of righteousness. It's His robe, not ours, because we don't have any righteousness of our own. But God gives it to us.
So this is talking spiritually, but I believe it is also talking about clothing. In fact, God uses the allegory of clothing to describe what He does spiritually. When we get rid of our sins. I also believe that, when I read this Scripture, when I see that God has covered me and clothed me, if He has done that spiritually, I think that should work out in my life physically.
How can we be covered with the blood of Jesus, clothed with His robe of righteousness, and yet still go around scantily clad, especially in public. I don't think it adds up.
What we're going to do is look at some of these words. I have so many other Scriptures. As you know, ladies, I'm going to take you into the Scriptures little by little. Even on this subject, the subject that is, goodness me, we can find Scriptures about this! But there are so many in the Word of God.
I am just amazed. I'm always amazed at the Word of God. I'm always amazed at how practical it is, and how God gets down to the nitty-gritty of life, and how He talks about clothing, and how He wants it to be. God doesn't leave anything out of His word.
All right. So let's look at some of these Hebrew words to understand what they really mean. When it says “For God has clothed thee,” the word is labash in the Hebrew. It's a verb. It an action word. It literally means, “to put on.”
So when God clothes us, He puts on clothing. Now He uses the allegory of clothing, although this is a spiritual thing that happens inwardly, but it’s “put on” as so many of the Scriptures are even translated “put on.” This is what is means. It means “to properly wrap around, to clothe oneself.”
Now there are so many different words for “clothing.” I think there are about 23 different Hebrew words for “clothing” in the Word of God. Then there's also a number of New Testament words. God doesn't use just one word. He has so many words, even for our clothing. But this particular word, labash, is used 111 times in the Bible.
Here are just a few examples.
Genesis 41:42. Pharaoh “arrayed Joseph in vesture of fine linen.” So the word is “arrayed” there. It's amazing how the Bible will translate a Hebrew word, and they will use different English words to translate it.
In Exodus 40:14, God commanded Moses about Aaron's son, and how he was to clothe him. He said: “Clothe them with coats.”
In Job 29:14, Job is speaking, and he says: “I put on (there it is, labash, to put on. You see, God's idea of clothing is that we put it on. We don't take it off. It's to put on, to cover, to wrap around). So, “I put on righteousness, and it clothed me. My justice was as a robe and a diadem.”
Psalm 132:9: “Let thy priests be clothed” (labash) “with righteousness.”
Isaiah 59:16-17. Here this Scripture is talking about God Himself. It says: “He saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor. Therefore His arm brought salvation to Him; and His righteousness sustained Him. He put on righteousness as a breastplate and a helmet of salvation on his head. He put on garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloak.”
Wow! That's pretty amazing, ladies, because there, two times, God Himself says the words, “I put on righteousness.” In other words, “I clothed Myself with it. I put on the garments of vengeance. I clothed Myself with it.” In fact, if we read this over again, we will find six words about clothing in this one Scripture.
OK, “For He put on,” labash.
“He put on (again) the garment,” two, that's labash.
“Garment,” third word. That's beged.
“Clothing,” another Hebrew word. That is four.
“Clad,” He was clad with zeal, another Hebrew word, five.
And He was clad with a “cloak.” That was six. Six words about clothing in one Scripture where God is talking about covering. It's pretty amazing, isn't it?
Psalm 93:21: “The Lord reigneth, He is clothed, (labash) with majesty.” “The Lord is clothed (same Hebrew word again) with strength wherewith He hath girded Himself.”
Psalm 104:1-2: “Bless the Lord, O my soul. O Lord my God, Thou are very great; Thou art clothed (Here's God. He is clothed, labash, the same word. He is clothed) with honor and glory. Who coverest Thyself with light as a garment.”
Once again, all these words about clothing. And I could go on and on. But you're getting the idea, aren't you?
But let's go back to the very beginning, because that's where we always have to start. Because in studying the Word of God, there is a law which is called The Law of the First Principle. And it's something which all Bible students look for.
When God says something, or He states something, or there is an action about something, the first time God is establishing a precedent for that subject. He will add to it, and it will be developed throughout the Word of God but that is the foundation.
It's the Law of the First Principle. God never takes away from what He says the first time. That's a good thing to remember. That's why Genesis is so important. Even the first three chapters of Genesis give us so much of what God wants us to understand because it's His foundation.
So, we go back to the story of Adam and Eve. We know how they sinned, and then, after they'd sinned for the first time, they realized they were naked. They had never really seen their nakedness before. It was so pure and innocent.
But now, now, because they'd tasted of that fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, now they understood nakedness. And they had to do something! So what were they going to do? They did the best thing they could do. They gathered some kind of leaves, or whatever they were, and they made aprons for themselves, the Bible says. And they girded them around themselves.
What does it actually say? Yes, Genesis 3:7: “And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed (that's interesting. Wow! They sewed. I wonder how they were even able to do that?) But “they sewed fig leaves together (it must have been some leaf that was very big, I'm sure) and made themselves aprons.”
Now the word “apron” comes from a root word, chagor, which means “gird on every side.” So they girded their loins. That was interesting. They at least covered that. But it was not good enough. They tried to cover themselves, but it didn't really work.
When God came on the scene, what did God do? He, first of all, had to kill an animal, and blood had to be shed. Blood was shed, right there, for their sin, because sin can only be redeemed through the shedding of the precious blood of Jesus.
And through the shedding of blood, then God took those skins. Then He made them clothes. What does it say? We go to Genesis 3:21: “Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins and clothed them.”
Now there's that same word we've been talking about, labash. The Hebrew word, which means, “to put on, to wrap around, to clothe ourselves.” And so God was the one Who first clothed man. Well, they tried with aprons. Leaves didn't really work too well.
GOD WAS THE FIRST CLOTHES DESIGNER
But God actually, it's amazing, God is the first of everything! God was the first clothes designer!
Allison: That's right.
Nancy: Yeah! I mean, the devil’s taken that up and taken that away from God. God was the first clothes designer. And I am sure that those clothes that He made for Adam and Eve would have been glorious. They would have covered them, but they would have been stylish and beautiful.
Because you remember, ladies, last week we talked mostly about how God wants us to clothe ourselves with glory and beauty. And so that's in God's heart. He loves beauty. He loves glory. So those beautiful leather garments would have been absolutely glorious.
Have you seen pictures? I have, of Adam and Eve being cast out of the Garden of Eden. They've got animal skins around their backs, and they're going out from the Lord. But that's not true. God would not have given them a skin, and said, “Put that around you.” No! He made, do you notice the word? He made, He made, God, the Creator of the universe, made their clothes.
Can you imagine what they would have been like? They would have been glorious. They would have been beautiful, stylish, comfortable, to keep them warm, or to keep them cool. They would have been incredible. They would have been perfect, because all God's works are perfect.
But, we see another thing. OK, now we see that He made them “coats.” That's what it's called here in the King James. He made them “coats of skins.” That Hebrew word is kethoneth. It means, “to cover, a coat, a garment, a robe.” It comes from the root word katheph, meaning (and this is there, wow, I had never noticed this before. Whoo! The root word means, “ the shoulder, the upper end of the arm. A place from where the garment hangs. A side piece.”) That's the full meaning of that root word of the clothes that God made.
So therefore, He made them from the shoulders down. That's how He clothed them. He didn't clothe them with bare shoulders. He didn't make Eve’s dress a strapless dress. It was clothed from the shoulders down. And I guess I haven't thought of this before. Probably you never thought of this before. But you see, when we understand what the Bible says, and this is the Law of the First Principle, we need to say, OK, is my clothing lining up?
I think of wedding dresses. Help! I mean, most brides come to the altar today in a strapless dress. Bare shoulders. That's not how we're meant to come to the sacred wedding altar.
And really, I don't know how you think about this, Allison, but I go to weddings, and really, it can be so embarrassing, because the bride is in this strapless wedding dress, and then all the bridesmaids are in their strapless dresses. Some are big-busted, and it's hardly fitting on and showing all their bust. And others, their little dresses are barely hanging on. It's really quite a joke.
And it doesn't even look very nice! And it's not how it's meant to be. I believe a bride is meant to come to the wedding altar covered. Covered. And it's her husband's privilege to uncover her. Can you believe how we just, you see, we do so many things in our society that we take for granted. We think they're normal. Normal! You know, a wedding dress. Where do you find one that's not a strapless one? It's pretty hard to find today. And yet, the bride is showing off to everybody her flesh even before she gets to her husband.
And then, you know, we went out to dinner the other night. Oh, tell us about that.
Allison: Yes, we were at a restaurant. Right next to us was a wedding dress shop. And so they had their (you usually put your most popular dress that you want to entice people to come in) so they had this white, long, very elegant wedding dress. And I pointed it out, and you noticed it separately.
And what it was, and I pointed it out to my husband, because there are pictures on Facebook I can't even show him, because they're so, I don't even know. I think they're pornographic. They really show so much. This particular wedding dress was in downtown Dickson, TN.
Nancy: Little, wee, downtown Dickson! Here we are, just out in the woods. You know, it’s not like some up-fashion sort of place.
Allison: Right. And so what they did, was this wedding dress, it started the vee, if you will, where your cleavage would be, the vee cut all the way down to the belly button, I would say. It was showing everything.
I've heard that men are even more attracted to just the idea of nudity than nudity itself. Meaning just having a little glimpse of what a breast looks like is more attractive and causes lust more than a completely naked, naked . . .
This bride is wearing white, because it was a white gown, to show . . .
Nancy: Show her purity.
Allison: Show her purity. But yet, her poor husband is having to share her body with everyone who comes to the wedding. It's just, it's embarrassing.
Nancy: Well, you see, they just go from one thing to the other. For years now, you see a strapless wedding dress. But now that the fashion, and I had noticed this on Facebook, even before I saw it in the window. I sort of thought, “Oh, well, that must be just certain people.” But then now I see that that's what they're selling, where it's just about see-through, and the vee right down to at least the waist.
Where are we going? The trouble is, we know what happens in society. People take for granted, and think it's normal. But it is not normal, or in the Bible.
Allison: Think about who the dressmakers are. Who are the fashion people? Are they people that are seeking God on a daily basis? Are they people that have a moral compass? Are they people that really desire to keep young girls' purity? Absolutely not! And it's not just the wedding gown. It's these homecoming and prom.
Nancy: You know, because you've. . .
Allison: Oh, my goodness! I try to just keep my husband off the phone!
Nancy: Allison and Daniel have probably the biggest photography business in Pensacola, and they do many proms. Well, you have just about a thousand children at schools, haven't you?
Allison: Proms and homecomings, and yes, even the home-school prom they have in our town is kind of a joke in our opinion. They pray before they sing. But other than that, the clothing's the same, the short, short dresses that show everything, the low cleavage. The thing is, I've always said to my girls, we have six girls and five boys. We have six beautiful girls. So we have raised young ladies. They're 22, 19, and 17 (and two younger ones).
I've always said to them, “Whenever you get dressed, you're selling something. What are you wanting to sell? Because there's going to be something that captures a young man's attention. What type of man are you trying to draw in? Are you trying to attract the one that wants to look down at your cleavage, or are you trying to attract the one that wants see into your heart, into your eyes, into what you're all about?”
Goodness, we literally talk about the practical. Being a mom in today's culture, being a father in today's culture. With teenage girls, you send them off to go buy clothing. What is our responsibility? Do we instruct them on . . . Because a lot of people can get into, “Oh, well, it has to be two inches below the knee, and it has to be this and that, and it can't be spaghetti straps.”
I know a lot of ladies might be thinking, “Oh, that sound so legalistic!” So all these anti-legalistics, you know what they're doing? They're throwing it out the window, and they're saying, “Oh, let's not be legalistic. Let's let our girls wear whatever they want. We want to be their friend.”
We were talking about this the other day. These mothers, I am amazed at these Christian mothers and fathers that I know personally. They love the Lord, they're trying to raise their kids. But they literally let their girls go out of the house half-naked. And these are young, beautiful, unmarried girls.
They're sending them, with a young boy, to prom, to be alone, where I can't even show my husband their picture because it is so seductive. How do they expect that sixteen-year-old young boy to not look at her breasts all night, look up her skirt all night. You're just inviting it! I think there has to be a better answer than all legalistic and all freedom. There has to be . . .
I have some ideas. I don't know if we have time. But I think you're right. It goes back to, that God has an opinion on this. We as parents . . .
Nancy: I think it's not an opinion. God has His law of the first mention. He has His heart. He has His whole plan for how He wants us to clothe ourselves. He's showing it in the very beginning. We're either going to live by society and what has society produced? Havoc.
There is so much fornication among young people, even Christian young people. It's not meant to be like that. Clothing has a lot to do with it. It's not like we we're talking about weddings. Of course, it's not just weddings. It's the whole of life. It's even coming to church, you know? And even going out in public.
I am amazed. I cannot believe. Often I have met in town, you know, in a shop, and I'll meet a friend, well, someone I know. Surely I hardly know where to look, they have so much cleavage showing. Their husband is supposedly a Christian, and I think to myself, “How does he let his wife go out, just showing herself?” If a husband truly, truly loves his wife, he's not going to want her to go out and show to the world what is so sacred and special for him.
Allison: But it's so cultural. It's so in style. It's what everyone's doing. You understand, this is what all these young girls, they just want to keep up with what everyone else wears. Here's my challenge: we need to be raising those who are willing to be set apart. WE NEED TO RAISE LEADERS, NOT FOLLOWERS! That is so important in fashion.
I think we all would agree that modesty must be a heart issue. If you force it, my dad, growing up, he had rules that he made me do. But there was no, necessarily, I didn't actually desire to please him. So when I would get on the school bus, I would change clothes so I could wear what I wanted. It has to be a heart issue.
I know with our oldest, she really, thankfully, desired to be modest. It's funny, I did a poll down here at the Hilltop the last time I was here. I had a bunch of the young boys. We were talking about modesty. I know girls, they really think they want to dress immodestly, because they think that's what boys want.
But I asked about ten young men here, unmarried, what would you really rather see a young lady? Would you rather a young lady be dressed very beautifully and modestly, where you're not seeing any part that you shouldn't. Or would you like to see the cleavage, and the short skirts, and the tight pants?
Every single one of them, except one who's just an honest young man, he said, “Oh, I like seeing it.” Every other one said, “I would definitely prefer seeing a modestly dressed young lady. It's beautiful to me. It's what attracts me.”
If there's two girls next to each other, and one is just dressed beautifully, but yet her shirts are higher, she's either wearing a skirt, or something that's not showing everything, that's what he's attracted to.
See, these fathers need to be telling their girls this. They don't need to take a back seat when it comes to dress. And a lot of men do. They think, “Oh, that's the mom's job.” And then the mom wants to be best friends with the daughter, so she doesn't give an opinion.
And honestly, they just let them wear whatever they want. And it has to be a big deal.
Nancy: That's not parenting. But I think what you, a little phrase you said, really, is the answer. Beautifully and modestly. It's not that you go around drab, looking like you come from a hundred years ago. No. You can dress in a style that goes with society that's modest. You can make anything modest, and you keep it beautiful. That's what God wants. He wants beauty and He wants covering.
Let me end this session with some little statements:
“Clothes are to cover, not uncover.”
This is another thing I wrote down:
“The further people get away from God, the less they want to wear.
The closer people get to God, the more they want to cover.”
So let's pray, and I think we'd better do another session on this.
Allison: I think that you're really getting wound up! (laughter)
Nancy:
Lord Jesus, we thank You that You love to show us the way. We thank You for Your Word, Lord, for without Your Word, we're in the dark. But Your Word shows us, Lord, how You want us to dress. Lord, we pray that You will give us open hearts and meek spirits that hear Your Word, to be willing to obey You, and, Lord, to take notice of Your Word. We are asking in the Name of Jesus. Amen.”
Blessings from Nancy Campbell * www.abovwerubies.org
Transcribed by Darlene Norris * This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
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